Key takeaways
- Insurance stocks are quietly compounding: Canadian insurers have been putting up strong returns thanks to higher interest rates boosting investment income and disciplined underwriting, making this one of the more overlooked corners of the Canadian market right now.
- Different flavors for different portfolios: This group covers real range, from Fairfax Financial’s value-driven, Berkshire-style approach to Manulife’s massive wealth management pivot in Asia, to Trisura’s specialty niche that’s been a growth standout among smaller names.
- Rate sensitivity cuts both ways: The same rising rate environment that’s been padding earnings could reverse if central banks start cutting aggressively, and any prolonged economic slowdown would pressure premium growth and claims experience across the board, so don’t treat these as set-and-forget holdings.
Canadian insurance stocks have been on a tear, and I don’t think the run is as stretched as some people assume. Manulife has roughly doubled over the past two years. Intact keeps grinding to new highs. Even Fairfax Financial, which spent years being dismissed as a messy holding company, has delivered returns that would make most growth investors jealous. The sector has earned its momentum.
What I find compelling about insurers right now is how different each business model really is. Fairfax is essentially a value investing conglomerate wrapped in an insurance shell. Trisura is a specialty niche player growing premiums at a pace the large caps can’t touch. Manulife and Great-West Lifeco are wealth management and insurance hybrids with massive Asian and international footprints. Lumping them together as “insurance” misses the point entirely.
The economics of this sector are genuinely attractive. Insurance companies collect premiums upfront, invest the float, and pay claims later. That’s a built-in advantage, especially when interest rates are elevated and bond portfolios are finally generating real income again. After a decade of near-zero rates starving insurers of investment returns, the current environment is exactly what these balance sheets were built for.
I also think insurers are underrepresented in most Canadian portfolios. People load up on bank stocks and pipeline stocks for their financial and income exposure, then completely ignore a group of companies with better return-on-equity profiles and, in some cases, stronger dividend growth track records. A few of these names would fit comfortably alongside the best Canadian dividend stocks out there.
Not every name here is a screaming buy at current prices. Some have gotten expensive after big runs, and at least one is dealing with company-specific issues that could create either a great entry point or a value trap depending on execution. I wanted to break down where I see genuine opportunity versus where the market may already be pricing in the good news.
In This Article
- Trisura Group Ltd. (TSU.TO)
- Fairfax Financial Holdings Limited (FFH.TO)
- Manulife Financial Corporation (MFC.TO)
- iA Financial Corporation Inc. (IAG.TO)
- Intact Financial Corp (IFC.TO)
- Great-West Lifeco Inc. (GWO.TO)
Trisura Group Ltd. (TSX: TSU)
Trisura Group Ltd. is a leading international specialty insurance provider operating in Canada, the U.S., and internationally...
Competitive Edge
- Trisura's U.S. fronting model creates a capital-light toll booth on MGA-written premium. Fronting fees are earned regardless of loss outcomes when properly reinsured, making the revenue stream more fee-like than traditional underwriting.
- Canadian surety operations provide a stable, high-margin anchor. Surety bonds have structurally low loss ratios and Trisura's long broker relationships in this niche create meaningful switching costs for construction and commercial clients.
- The company occupies a regulatory moat as a licensed admitted carrier. MGAs need fronting partners with state-by-state licenses, and building this infrastructure from scratch takes years, limiting new entrants.
- Management's disciplined focus on specialty niches avoids direct competition with large commercial carriers like Intact or Fairfax. This positioning in underserved segments supports pricing power and reduces commoditization risk.
- Trisura's international reinsurance segment provides geographic diversification and a natural hedge, allowing the company to retain or cede risk flexibly depending on market conditions.
By the Numbers
- FCF yield of 18.5% against a P/FCF of 5.4x is extraordinary for a specialty insurer, suggesting the market is discounting the sustainability of cash generation. FCF-to-net-income of 2.66x indicates earnings quality is actually understated by GAAP net income.
- EV/EBITDA of 2.16x is remarkably compressed, likely reflecting the market treating fronting fee revenue as low-quality. But with EBITDA growing 38.8% YoY and the 3Y CAGR at 226%, operating leverage is clearly real and accelerating.
- SBC/Revenue at 0.075% is essentially zero dilution. For a $3.2B revenue company, this means nearly all reported earnings translate to shareholder value, a rarity in financial services where equity comp can quietly erode returns.
- Interest coverage of 188x means debt service is a non-issue. Combined with ROE of 16.6% and ROIC matching ROA at 14.8%, returns are being generated from operations, not financial engineering through leverage.
- 5Y revenue CAGR of 145% reflects Trisura's explosive scaling of its U.S. fronting platform. EPS growth of 19.6% YoY against a 3Y CAGR of 66% suggests the company is now converting top-line scale into more consistent per-share earnings.
Risk Factors
- Net margin of 4.4% against an operating margin of 29.4% reveals a massive gap, likely driven by ceded premiums and loss reserve charges flowing below the operating line. This disconnect demands scrutiny of reserve adequacy and reinsurance counterparty risk.
- Revenue declined 0.27% YoY despite the 5Y CAGR of 145%, signaling the hypergrowth phase of U.S. fronting has plateaued. Consensus expects only 9.3% revenue growth in Y1, a sharp deceleration from the 3Y CAGR of 15.8%.
- Negative shareholder yield of -1.3% means debt issuance (debt paydown yield of -1.78%) is outpacing buybacks (0.47%). The company is net-consuming capital from shareholders despite generating over $1B in unlevered FCF.
- P/B of 2.21x on a tangible book of $19.04 per share means the market is pricing in significant franchise value. Any deterioration in loss ratios or fronting partner defaults would compress this premium quickly.
- The Risk grade of 5.3/10 aligns with the structural concern that fronting revenue, while high-volume, carries tail risk from program administrator underwriting failures that Trisura may not fully control.
Fairfax Financial Holdings Limited (TSX: FFH)
Fairfax Financial Holdings Limited is a Canadian financial holding company based in Toronto, Ontario. The company is primarily engaged in property and casualty insurance and reinsurance, and investment management...
Competitive Edge
- Prem Watsa's decentralized operating model, where subsidiary CEOs run their own underwriting books, creates genuine accountability at the unit level. This structure avoids the groupthink that led to catastrophic reserve deficiencies at competitors like AIG and Hartford.
- Fairfax's investment portfolio is managed with a contrarian, value-oriented philosophy that has historically generated outsized returns during dislocations. The fixed-income portfolio is now locked into higher rates, providing a durable investment income floor of $2B+ annually for several years.
- The Go Digit acquisition gives Fairfax a direct play on Indian insurance penetration, which at ~1% of GDP is a fraction of developed markets. India's insurance market is growing 12-15% annually, and Go Digit's digital-first model has structural cost advantages over legacy Indian insurers.
- Odyssey Group, the crown jewel reinsurer, consistently produces sub-90% combined ratios and has decades of reserve redundancy. This is the kind of franchise that would command 2x+ book value as a standalone entity, yet it's embedded in Fairfax's 1.4x P/B consolidated valuation.
By the Numbers
- Combined ratio improved from 95% in FY2021 to 92.7% in FY2024, with Q4 2025 hitting 88.6%. Each point of improvement on ~$26B of net premiums earned translates to roughly $260M of incremental underwriting profit, a compounding earnings driver.
- International Insurers underwriting profit surged 111% YoY to $219M in FY2025, with the segment's combined ratio clearly inflecting. This was the fastest-growing profit contributor and signals Fairfax's emerging market acquisitions (Go Digit, etc.) are finally earning through.
- At 8.2x trailing P/E and 4.3x EV/EBITDA, Fairfax trades at a steep discount to global P&C peers averaging 12-15x earnings. The 12.1% earnings yield against a 0.8% dividend yield means 93% of earnings are being retained or deployed, compounding book value at nearly 18% ROE.
- Buyback yield of 4.8% is substantial for an insurer. With SBC/revenue at just 0.35%, dilution is negligible, meaning buybacks are genuinely shrinking the float and concentrating book value per share, which grew from under $500 to $1,149 over recent years.
- Total gross premiums written reached $33.3B in FY2025, up from $23.8B in FY2021, a 40% increase in four years. Premium growth is now decelerating to 2.3% YoY, which is actually healthy because it signals disciplined underwriting rather than chasing volume in a softening market.
Risk Factors
- FCF-to-net-income conversion is only 34.7%, well below the 80%+ you'd want. For an insurer this partly reflects investment portfolio mark-to-market gains flowing through income but not cash, but it still means reported EPS of $214 overstates cash generation at $79 per share.
- Forward P/E of 13.1x vs trailing 8.2x implies analysts expect a 37% earnings decline. Consensus Y3 EPS of $97 is less than half trailing EPS of $214, suggesting the market sees FY2025's investment gains as non-recurring. If that's right, the stock isn't as cheap as it looks.
- Life Insurance and Run-off segment lost $214M at the operating level in FY2025, worsening 132% YoY, with Q4 alone losing $256M. This is a capital trap that absorbs resources without clear resolution, and the quarterly deterioration suggests reserve strengthening or adverse development.
- Global Insurers and Reinsurers, the largest profit segment at $3.7B operating income, declined 14.2% YoY in FY2025. Underwriting profit in this segment fell 8.3%. Given it represents over 55% of total operating income, any further deterioration would overwhelm gains elsewhere.
- Debt paydown yield is negative at -4.2%, meaning Fairfax added leverage. Combined with the buyback yield of 4.8%, net shareholder yield is only 0.5%. The company is essentially borrowing to fund buybacks, which works at 8x earnings but amplifies downside risk if underwriting deteriorates.
Manulife Financial Corporation (TSX: MFC)
Manulife Financial Corporation, founded in 1887 and headquartered in Toronto, Canada, is a leading international financial services group. The company operates primarily through its Manulife and John Hancock brands, offering a comprehensive range of financial advice, insurance, and wealth and asset management solutions...
Competitive Edge
- Manulife's Asia franchise, particularly in Hong Kong, Japan, and Southeast Asia, benefits from structural underpenetration of life insurance. Rising middle-class wealth in Vietnam, the Philippines, and Indonesia provides a multi-decade growth runway competitors like AIA and Prudential also chase but with less bancassurance reach.
- The WAM business provides capital-light, fee-based recurring revenue that diversifies away from insurance risk. Manulife Investment Management's $808B AUM platform gives it institutional distribution scale that smaller Canadian peers like iA Financial or Great-West lack.
- IFRS 17 adoption has improved earnings transparency and comparability, and Manulife's contractual service margin (CSM) provides a visible pipeline of future profit releases. This accounting regime rewards disciplined new business pricing, which Manulife's APE growth suggests it is executing well.
- Dual-brand strategy (Manulife in Canada/Asia, John Hancock in the US) allows tailored market positioning. The John Hancock Vitality wellness program creates behavioral data advantages and policyholder engagement that reduce lapse rates and improve mortality experience.
- Management's stated target of reducing the proportion of lower-ROE legacy businesses while growing Asia and WAM is a credible value-creation strategy. The shift is visible in the numbers: Asia now contributes over 55% of geographic net income versus under 40% five years ago.
By the Numbers
- PEG of 0.21 against a forward P/E of 10.37 signals the market is dramatically underpricing Manulife's earnings growth trajectory, with consensus EPS expected to rise from $3.07 trailing to $5.51 by Y3, a 79% cumulative increase.
- Asia APE sales grew 20.9% YoY to $7.34B in FY2025, accelerating from 35.9% in FY2024 on a compounding basis. Asia now generates 75% of total APE sales, and its expense efficiency ratio improved to 27.6% from 47.2% in FY2021, showing genuine operating leverage.
- Global WAM net income grew 19.4% YoY to $1.91B with AUM of $808B, and the WAM expense efficiency ratio improved from 65.3% in FY2023 to 58.2%, meaning fee-based earnings are scaling faster than costs. This is the highest-quality earnings stream in the business.
- Total shareholder yield of 6.9% (3.9% dividend plus 3.0% buyback yield) is well-covered by an FCF payout ratio of just 10.3%, leaving enormous capacity for dividend growth or accelerated buybacks without balance sheet strain.
- Insurance revenue grew 8.6% YoY to $28.9B while net investment income surged 25.3% to $23.9B, indicating both underwriting and investment portfolios are firing simultaneously. Interest coverage at 35x leaves wide margin for credit cycle deterioration.
Risk Factors
- US segment swung to a net loss of $527M in FY2025 from a $135M profit in FY2024, a $662M deterioration. US EBT went from +$132M to -$708M, suggesting reserve strengthening or adverse claims experience in the John Hancock long-term care book.
- US expense efficiency ratio spiked from 24.5% to 32.9% YoY, a 34% deterioration, while US APE sales grew 25.8%. Rising costs alongside rising sales means the US is buying growth at deteriorating unit economics.
- Total AUM was essentially flat at $1.385T (-0.1% YoY) after growing 14.8% in FY2024, with US AUM declining 6.2% and WAM AUM flat. Market-dependent fee income is vulnerable if equity markets correct further.
- Trailing net margin of 7.0% is thin relative to the 62.7% operating margin, a gap that reflects the massive insurance service expenses and claims costs that sit below the operating line. Small adverse reserve developments can wipe out reported earnings.
- Canada APE sales declined 5.7% YoY after growing 19.9% in FY2024, and most recent quarterly Canada net income dropped 37.2% QoQ. The domestic market appears to be hitting a growth ceiling.
iA Financial Corporation Inc. (TSX: IAG)
iA Financial Corporation Inc., operating as iA Financial Group, is one of the largest insurance and wealth management companies in Canada. The company provides a comprehensive range of financial products and services to individuals and groups, including life and health insurance, auto and home insurance, savings and retirement plans, mutual funds, securities, and trust services...
Competitive Edge
- iA's dealer services distribution channel (auto/home warranty, creditor insurance sold through car dealerships) creates a sticky, embedded distribution moat that Sun Life and Manulife lack, giving it a structural cost advantage in Canadian P&C and creditor insurance.
- The wealth management platform benefits from RRSP/TFSA regulatory tailwinds unique to Canada, and the 39.9% YoY AUM/AUA surge suggests iA is winning net new flows, likely through its independent advisor network and iA Clarington fund family.
- Diversification across individual insurance, group benefits, wealth management, and US dealer services reduces earnings volatility. No single segment exceeds 40% of core earnings, providing a natural hedge against sector-specific downturns.
- Quebec-headquartered with deep francophone market penetration gives iA a regional moat that national competitors struggle to replicate. Cultural and linguistic barriers create switching costs in group benefits and individual insurance distribution.
- IFRS 17 adoption positions iA to report more transparent, comparable financials globally. As an early adopter among Canadian lifecos, the transition noise is largely behind them, giving analysts a cleaner forward earnings picture.
By the Numbers
- PEG of 0.46 with forward P/E of 10.79x against consensus EPS growth from $11.29 to $13.93 (23% Y1) and $15.26 (10% Y2) suggests the market is materially underpricing the earnings trajectory relative to growth.
- Total AUM+AUA surged 30.5% YoY to $341B, with AUA alone up 49.3%. This asset base growth is a leading indicator for fee income that hasn't fully flowed through to reported earnings yet.
- FCF payout ratio of 16.6% versus earnings payout ratio of 33.2% reveals substantial excess cash generation beyond dividends. The 1.92x FCF-to-net-income ratio signals high earnings quality for an insurer.
- Wealth Management net income compounded from $238M (FY2022) to $428M (FY2025), nearly doubling in three years. This segment now contributes more profit than Insurance Canada, shifting the earnings mix toward higher-multiple, fee-based income.
- Total shareholder yield of 4.9% (2.1% dividend + 2.0% buyback + 2.9% debt paydown) is a strong capital return profile, and the buyback yield appears to be genuinely shrinking the float given the low SBC typical of Canadian insurers.
Risk Factors
- Corporate segment costs accelerated to negative $344M in FY2025 (up 22% YoY), growing faster than any operating segment's profit. This drag absorbed nearly all of the US Operations' $102M contribution, and the trend is worsening each year.
- US Operations reported net income of just $7M in the most recent quarter, down 66.7% QoQ. Despite the 264% annual rebound, quarterly momentum has collapsed, suggesting the FY2025 recovery was front-loaded or lumpy.
- Insurance Canada EBT dropped 66.2% QoQ to $48M in the latest quarter, a sharp sequential deterioration that annual figures (10% YoY growth) completely mask. This needs monitoring for claims experience or reserve adjustments.
- Revenue growth 5Y CAGR is negative at -8.2%, even as 3Y CAGR is +20.4%. This divergence reflects the IFRS 17 transition distortion, but it means the long-term organic growth story is harder to verify against a clean baseline.
- Investment segment income slipped 2.4% YoY and fell 42.2% QoQ. With $490M in annual EBT, this is the second-largest profit contributor. Any sustained pressure from credit spreads or mark-to-market losses would hit consolidated earnings hard.
Intact Financial Corp (TSX: IFC)
Intact Financial Corporation (IFC) is the largest provider of property and casualty (P&C) insurance in Canada and a leading provider of specialty insurance in North America. The company offers a wide range of insurance products, including auto, home, and business insurance, through various distribution channels, including brokers, direct-to-consumer, and partnerships...
Competitive Edge
- IFC's 18%+ market share in Canadian P&C creates pricing intelligence advantages. With the largest dataset of Canadian claims, IFC can segment risk more precisely than smaller competitors, creating a structural underwriting edge that compounds over time.
- The broker distribution model in Canada creates high switching costs. Unlike direct writers, IFC's broker relationships represent embedded distribution that competitors cannot easily replicate, and brokers are incentivized by profit-sharing arrangements to place business with IFC.
- The RSA acquisition gave IFC a UK&I platform with Lloyd's of London access and specialty lines capabilities that would take a decade to build organically. This diversifies catastrophe exposure away from Canadian weather events.
- IFC's data analytics platform (which they brand as a competitive advantage) allows real-time pricing adjustments. In a hardening market, this means IFC captures rate adequacy faster than peers. In softening markets, it helps avoid underpriced risks.
- Canadian P&C insurance faces high regulatory barriers to entry (provincial licensing, capital requirements, OSFI oversight), protecting incumbents. Foreign entrants like Berkshire have struggled to gain meaningful Canadian personal lines share.
By the Numbers
- Combined ratio improved from 94.2 in FY2023 to 88.2 in FY2025, a 600bps swing driven entirely by claims ratio compression (60.8 to 54.2). This is the best underwriting result in the five-year dataset and the primary earnings driver.
- Canada operating income before tax surged 66.9% YoY to C$2.66B on only 7.8% revenue growth, indicating massive operating leverage as rate increases earned through while claims normalized. Canada now contributes 59% of segment operating income.
- FCF-to-net-income conversion of 1.83x is unusually high, suggesting strong reserve releases or favorable timing of premium collections relative to claims payments. This quality metric matters because reported EPS may actually understate cash generation.
- US segment operating income grew 23.2% YoY on just 5.6% revenue growth, with consistent margin expansion across FY2022-FY2025. The US specialty book is scaling profitably without requiring aggressive top-line growth.
- Interest coverage at 31x is exceptionally strong for an insurer carrying acquisition-related debt from the RSA deal. This gives IFC significant financial flexibility for further M&A or to weather a severe catastrophe year.
Risk Factors
- EPS growth shows -100% across all timeframes (3Y, 5Y, 10Y CAGR), which appears to reflect IFRS 17 transition distortions. But consensus Y1 EPS of C$17.88 is actually 5.3% below trailing EPS of C$18.88, suggesting the street expects normalization lower.
- UK&I operating income dropped 25.6% YoY to C$224M despite 3.4% revenue growth, a sharp reversal from 99.3% growth the prior year. This segment's earnings volatility (ranging from C$27M to C$301M over four years) signals ongoing integration or reserving challenges from the RSA acquisition.
- Expense ratio has crept higher every single year, from 32.9 in FY2021 to 34.0 in FY2025. While claims improvement masks this, a 110bps structural expense increase offsets roughly C$250M of underwriting profit annually at current premium volumes.
- Revenue growth has decelerated sharply: 5Y CAGR of 17.3% (acquisition-inflated) versus 3Y CAGR of 3.3% and most recent YoY of 2.8%. Organic growth is running well below the premium growth rate, suggesting investment income or other revenue lines are lagging.
- P/B of 1.48x with ROE of only 12.3% implies the market is paying a meaningful premium to book for mid-tier returns on equity. For context, a 12% ROE at 1.5x book implies the market expects ROE expansion, which requires sustained combined ratio improvement.
Great-West Lifeco Inc. (TSX: GWO)
Great-West Lifeco Inc., headquartered in Winnipeg, Canada, is an international financial services holding company with a diversified portfolio of businesses. Operating within the Financials sector, specifically in the Life & Health Insurance industry, Great-West Lifeco provides a wide range of financial products and services...
Competitive Edge
- Empower Retirement (U.S. subsidiary) is now the second-largest retirement plan recordkeeper in America after consolidating MassMutual and Prudential books. Scale advantages in recordkeeping create sticky, fee-based revenue with high switching costs for plan sponsors.
- Geographic diversification across Canada, U.S., and Europe (via Irish Life and Canada Life UK) provides natural hedging against any single regulatory regime or economic cycle. Few global insurers have this balanced a three-legged stool.
- Power Financial/IGM ownership structure through parent Power Corporation provides patient, long-term capital allocation discipline. Management is not subject to activist pressure and can execute multi-year strategic plans without quarterly earnings management.
- The shift toward fee-based wealth management and away from spread-based insurance reduces capital intensity and interest rate sensitivity over time. Empower's growth trajectory is converting GWO from a traditional insurer into a capital-light asset gatherer.
- IFRS 17 adoption, while creating near-term reporting noise, actually improves earnings visibility going forward by better matching insurance revenue with service delivery. GWO's early adoption positions it ahead of peers in analyst comparability.
By the Numbers
- PEG of 0.41 is exceptionally low for a large-cap insurer, with forward EPS estimates climbing from $5.48 to $6.40 over three years. The market is pricing GWO as if this earnings growth trajectory has a high probability of failure, which the segment-level data contradicts.
- Total AUM surged 12.9% YoY to $1.14 trillion after declining 8.1% the prior year, with all three major geographies contributing double-digit growth simultaneously. AUM recovery is a leading indicator for fee-based revenue acceleration across wealth and asset management operations.
- U.S. segment pre-tax income compounded from $425M (FY2022) to $1.72B (FY2025), a 4x increase in three years. This is the fastest-improving segment and now represents 37% of consolidated EBT, up from roughly 10% in FY2022.
- Combined shareholder yield of 3.7% (dividend 3.6% plus buyback 2.7% plus debt paydown 0.9%) is well above the Canadian financials average. The buyback yield of 2.7% signals management sees the stock as undervalued at current prices.
- Capital and Risk Solutions net income rebounded 31.3% YoY to $861M after a 24.8% decline, with pre-tax income up 33.2%. This reinsurance segment is inherently lumpy, but the recovery confirms the prior year's decline was experience-driven, not structural.
Risk Factors
- FCF payout ratio at 83.6% vs earnings payout ratio of 56.9% reveals a significant gap. Cash generation is materially weaker than reported earnings suggest, leaving thin coverage for the dividend on a cash basis and minimal reinvestment capacity.
- Europe net income dropped 34.5% YoY to $609M and fell 31.9% QoQ in the most recent quarter, even as European AUM grew 13.6%. The disconnect between rising AUM and collapsing profitability suggests either reserve charges, mark-to-market losses, or margin compression that AUM growth alone won't fix.
- Five-year revenue CAGR is negative 11.8%, and five-year FCF CAGR is negative 64.5%. While IFRS 17 adoption distorted revenue comparisons, the FCF deterioration is real and reflects structural cash flow challenges in the insurance model that the growth grade of 2.8/10 correctly captures.
- Lifeco Corporate segment swung to a $495M pre-tax loss in FY2025 from just $39M the prior year, a 1,169% deterioration. Corporate revenue simultaneously spiked 2,591% to $915M. This combination of surging revenue with massive losses suggests one-time restructuring costs or investment losses that management may not be fully disclosing.
- Canada, the largest segment by revenue at $17B, saw pre-tax income decline 5.8% YoY and net income drop 10.7% despite stable AUM growth of 10.4%. Margin compression in the home market is a concern when it represents the earnings base.
Insurance is one of those rare sectors where the business model itself is the moat. You don’t need to squint at some speculative TAM estimate or hope management executes a turnaround. These companies get paid before they have to deliver anything. That cash flow dynamic is powerful, and it’s why the best insurers compound so quietly that most investors don’t notice until the stock has already doubled.
My biggest takeaway from this group is that the spread in quality is wider than the market gives it credit for. A couple of these names are genuinely excellent businesses trading at prices I can stomach. Others have earned their premium but don’t leave much room for error. And that distinction matters more now than it did a year ago, because the easy money from the rate reset has already been made. From here, earnings growth has to come from actual operational execution, not just a fatter investment portfolio.
Pick the ones that can grow without needing the macro to cooperate perfectly. Those are the compounders.